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Old 05-23-2008, 12:26 PM   Postid: 168176
Randall
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Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

When we switched from AT&T to Cablevision's phone service, we didn't realize we were going from an all-analog system to an all-digital (VoIP) one. Unfortunately, the phones we use -- AT&T 945s and 955s -- are analog phones that happen to send digital signals over line #1 to communicate with each other. The cable company's system (using Scientific Atlanta DCP2203C modems) appears to interfere with or block those signals.

When the phones can't talk to each other, they stop behaving like an office phone system. Call comes in on line #1 for someone else in the office, so you put them on hold. The other person picks up the call at their phone. But your phone doesn't know that -- it thinks the call is still on hold. So it bleeps every minute or so to remind you that you have a non-existent caller on hold.

When Boss #2 is the one who initially answered the call, this is especially annoying -- because she hears the bleeping in her wireless headset.

After the call is over, that first phone still has no clue what's going on. Line #1 remains "open" (but we've learned that it's actually line #2) and it takes a minute of fiddling with the phone to kill it.

There are a bunch of other features that also fail on the VoIP network, but we rarely use them. The on-hold/off-hold misbehavior is our bugbear.

I've sent an email support request to Advanced American Telephones (the manufacturer of the phones) and am trying to contact Scientific Atlanta, hoping that someone might know what the precise issue is and how (if) it can be solved. Cablevision's tech support and the company that did the installation can't pin it down, though a voltage problem is one theory that's been raised more than once.

So I'm steeling myself for the distinct possibility that we have to replace our phones, five in all. The question is, when I find a set of phones that meet our needs (2 lines minimum, with all of the expected office-type features), how do I know if it's going to work with the cableco's phone system?

I don't know if we need dedicated VoIP phones so much as phones that play nicely with VoIP. Cablevision says outright that PBX systems aren't going to work, so anything that behaves like one is going to fail, too. Maybe that's our problem with these phones, I dunno.

So, is there anyone out there getting phone service from the cable company in an office setting? What kind of phones are you using?

Randall
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:20 PM   Postid: 168180
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

We had a similar problem with some AT&T phones we had at one of our locations with DSL. The phones used line 1 to communicate with each other and the DSL filters blocked that communication. We ended up putting the DSL filter in at where the line came in from the LEC rather than at each phone. You might try just connecting the phones together on line 1 but don't connect that line to the VOIP gateway. If that works you have a solution providing you can live without a line.

I don't understand why they say a PBX wouldn't work though. In that environment the phones connect to the PBX and the PBX connects to the phone lines. As long as the PBX supports loop start trunks I would think it would work.

What would be really nice is if the cable company offered a VOIP Centrex type service. That would take all of this off your hands.
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:09 PM   Postid: 168181
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

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We had a similar problem with some AT&T phones we had at one of our locations with DSL. The phones used line 1 to communicate with each other and the DSL filters blocked that communication.
Yeah, I found that out the hard way when I used a DSL filter to give me a few extra inches of phone line. We have more phone cords than any sane person would need, but they're always a few inches short. Guess I'll have to actually buy some phone cords someday.
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You might try just connecting the phones together on line 1 but don't connect that line to the VOIP gateway. If that works you have a solution providing you can live without a line.
Now that's an interesting thought. These are actually 4-line phones, so if we could work out the logistics involved in separating line 1 from the rest (which might involve reprogramming the modems, but I believe Cablevision can do that remotely), it just might be feasible.

Thinking about it ... Using the line 3/4 jacks on the phones would be the simplest way to bypass line 1. No need for reprogramming or splitting the lines. But to make line 1 available throughout the office, we'd have to run new wire.

Well, now I know what I'll be doing on Tuesday -- running some small-scale experiments to see if this crazy scheme will work.

Thanks for giving me a real shot in the arm.

Randall
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Old 05-31-2008, 05:59 PM   Postid: 168360
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other



OK, I think I've recovered enough from the ordeal to tell the rest of the story. It's a long one, but it could help someone else if they run into the same problems we had.

First off, ryount's idea worked as expected. In fact, the last technician we had in the office says he's done exactly that for some customers with these AT&T 900-series phones. (Basically, no one but the manufacturer knows how the @#$% these phones operate.) But we decided that rewiring the office would be a last resort and started looking around for new phones.

I have to back up a moment and mention that the original work order from Cablevision's sales department specifically called for an Innomedia modem for an AT&T 955 system, not the Scientific Atlanta boxes we got. We made a point of stressing that fact when talking to Cablevision and the contractor who did the installation, but it made very little impression on most of them.

Cablevision's tech support department said that the 900-series phones were known to be incompatible. Their field technicians knew absolutely nothing about these phones and just shrugged. The contractor sent out someone out who at least grasped the problem, but he felt that a different modem wouldn't make a difference. I would have been happier if he'd at least tried a different modem, but he didn't.

So, I went to OfficeMax for a pair of RCA phones, hoping they would work with the VoIP system. Which they did, brilliantly. But the physical design of the phones made it impossible for my boss's remote handset lifter to operate. (I'm working up steam for a separate rant about that, so don't worry if you've never heard of a "remote handset lifter.")

By that time I felt utterly defeated. No one could tell me what phones would work with VoIP, pictures of the phones didn't give me enough info to know if they'd work with the handset lifter, and the field technicians from both companies weren't being helpful.

So we started back at the beginning. My boss called Cablevision's sales rep for help on the issue, since she had to know something about the equipment her customers were using. (She was the one who noticed what kind of phones we had and wrote the work order to reflect that.) We just got her voicemail, so we also called tech support and got a more concrete answer on phone compatibility. They were still adamant that the 900-series phones were unsupported, but they could tell us that the new AT&T 1000-series phones would work. And I could tell from the pictures that the design would accommodate the handset lifter.

We placed an order for three AT&T 1070 phones, and I repacked the RCA phones for return. (I had been very careful to note how everything was packaged and even took pictures in case memory failed me.)

Then we got a call back from the sales rep, who was absolutely furious about the conflicting information and minimal help we were getting from all parties concerned. She insisted that the Innomedia modem would work and escalated it up to corporate. But even so it took a few days to get a response from the technical department. In the meantime, we canceled the order for the 1070 phones.

Finally, late Thursday we got a call from another Cablevision field technician who insisted that we needed a Motorola modem. (Where the @#$% did that come from?) But the earliest he could get here was next week, because our office closes on Fridays for the summer. So we resigned ourselves to more waiting.

But then a field tech from the contractor popped into our office unexpectedly, as Cablevision had apparently lit a fire under them as well.

I have to back up again and point out that the field tech who did the original installation was a telephone guy first, cable guy second. I was very happy about that, since I knew the phone wiring in our building was going to be a problem. He knew what he was doing, and eventually found a clever way to bypass all of the uncertainties about the office wiring. The only problem was that he missed the part about the Innomedia modem, and the job ran so late that we didn't discover the hold issues until the next day.

Fast-forward to Thursday and the surprise visit from the contractor. This one was the supervisor of the original tech -- also a phone guy -- and he had more experience with commercial jobs. Even better, he had an Innomedia modem in his truck (hallelujah). And like his supervisee, he was doggedly determined to get the job done and went right to work instead of waving his hands.

After he installed the new modem, the bulk of the work was in the hands of a technician at Cablevision who had to flip the switches and whatnot to move us from the old modems to the new one. So it was a long stretch of him talking to the technician on the phone and chatting with me. When it was finally done, I tested the hold feature and it worked exactly the way it was supposed to. Success!

So here is what I learned during the last two weeks, for the benefit of anyone who might have the same situation we had.
  • Cablevision's sales department knows its stuff. Their field techs, OTOH, are the very epitome of the incompetent cable guy.
  • Front-line customer support at Cablevision is outstanding, verging on FutuerQuest levels. Seriously. Everyone I've ever talked to there has been friendly, professional, enthusiastic about their jobs and (with one exception I'm willing to overlook) extraordinarily well informed. And they aren't the powerless first-tier support reps you run into at most large corporations -- they can see the modem from their end and diagnose problems on the spot.
  • Make sure you get the contractor involved at the first sign of trouble, since for the first 30 days it's their responsibility to make sure everything works. Especially the phone service. And they know the right people to call at Cablevision -- the people who flip the switches back at the office should not be confused with their idiotic field techs.
  • And lastly, if you're thinking about buying a set of AT&T 900-series phones (they're still on the market) and you've got or will soon get cable phone service, don't.
Whoosh. Writing this up was almost as exhausting as living through it.

Oh, one other thing: We are seriously enjoying Cablevision's internet service (we've got Optimum Online with Boost). On a quiet night our download speeds can hit 26Mbps, and even during business hours things just scream down the wire. I have to remember now to make major downloads (Linux ISOs, OS X upgrades and the like) from the office, since my home DSL -- which is the second-highest speed they offer -- is ten times slower.

And even at busy times we get a consistent 4.6Mbps upstream (yes, you read that correctly -- our upstream bandwidth is now three times wider than our old downstream rate ... and 12 times the old upstream rate).

Life is good.

Randall
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:19 PM   Postid: 168412
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

But what are you doing for a backup system?

I'm not a believer in putting all my egg's in 1 basket, regardless. But around here, Bellsouth (now ATT) has buried all (or most of) their phone lines. The electric (Duke) and cable (Time-Warner) companies still run the wiring on poles. In the past 5 years, 3 'unexpected-OMG!' ice-storms have knocked out both electric and cable, for anywhere from 4 days to 16 days - but BellSouth never went down (same story way back when hurricane Hugo devastated the place).

Over the past 10 years, the phones have been down 5 times - twice b/c I did something stupid, twice b/c a field-tech did something stupid at a junction box, and once b/c a gasmain blew and took the phone trunk with it. Duke Power (electric) crashes at least 6+ times/year, for 4hrs to several days. Time-Warner (cable) crashes at least once per month, for 4hrs to several days (not to mention the 1-2 hr weekly outages).

As long as I have electric and dial-up (soon to be DSL), I can stay up & running when the cable is crashed. Altho we utilize wireless handsets, as long as I have hard-wired oldfashion phones I can at least answer calls and take orders when the electric is down (altho, I have to say that sitting in a dark 18-degree room, with a flashlite, trying to make nice AND write-up an order AND cross-sell is a zero-level of fun !)
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:37 PM   Postid: 168414
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

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Duke Power (electric) crashes at least 6+ times/year, for 4hrs to several days. Time-Warner (cable) crashes at least once per month, for 4hrs to several days (not to mention the 1-2 hr weekly outages).
Fairfield loses power on occasion during the summer, but that's why the utility companies have been ripping up the streets for the past two years to lay in new lines. (And yes, most towns along the route have insisted on underground cables.) Long power outages are not at all commonplace here -- four hours would be considered extreme outside of a weather disaster.

Cablevision has been historically more reliable than AT&T's DSL, through we don't know yet if that extends to their phone system.

Even better, the new modem they installed (the one that allows our phones to work together) came with its own UPS. So in theory our phones should keep working during a (non-apocalyptic) power failure.

Randall
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:30 PM   Postid: 168458
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

Randall, that was quite an ordeal. I hope this new setup is saving you a bunch over your old phone service for all you went through. I guess we are lucky that all our locations except 1 are big enough to have a PBX with a T1.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:30 PM   Postid: 168459
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

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Randall, that was quite an ordeal. I hope this new setup is saving you a bunch over your old phone service for all you went through. I guess we are lucky that all our locations except 1 are big enough to have a PBX with a T1.
I'm glad to say that it is worth the trouble -- for the first 12 months, the whole package including superfast internet is costing us less than our old AT&T phone bills alone. After that it goes up a bit, but will still cost less than phones plus 1.5Mbps DSL.

Cable is more expensive than DSL for home users, no question about it. Boss #1 finally ditched her dial-up for the low-end DSL plan, which is only $20 a month.

But when you factor in several phone lines, higher DSL costs for businesses and speeds that DSL can only dream of, I can see why Cablevision is aggressively pursuing business customers. When we first started with broadband it was the other way around -- DSL was much more affordable for business use. Now they charge $35/mo just for 1.5Mbps.

I'm expecting Cablevision to come knocking at Job #1 any day now. Same setup -- three phone lines and DSL (but upgraded to 3Mbps). We also have the same exact phone system, but at least I'll be prepared this time.

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Old 06-16-2008, 10:02 AM   Postid: 168625
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

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I'm expecting Cablevision to come knocking at Job #1 any day now. Same setup -- three phone lines and DSL (but upgraded to 3Mbps). We also have the same exact phone system, but at least I'll be prepared this time.
Just as I predicted, they came calling last week. We're scheduled for next Wednesday, and you can be @#$% sure they won't leave here without installing the right modem.

My 3Mbps DSL line at home is gonna get an inferiority complex.

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Old 06-16-2008, 03:24 PM   Postid: 168630
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Re: Cable phone system (VoIP) and office phones don't like each other

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When we first started with broadband it was the other way around -- DSL was much more affordable for business use. Now they charge $35/mo just for 1.5Mbps.
You people in the heart of civilization

Here I'm counting my lucky stars every day that this year at last we have 3.0 mbps / 512 kbps DSL for $99/month on a business phoneline. Best thing to come here in the last 20 years in my opinion, and an incredible deal compared to the satellite links it replaced.
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